Are You Working In Your Business or On It? With Ben Gideon and Jeff Wright
Live from Portland, Maine, it’s Ben Gideon and Jeff Wright, the team from Gideon Asen taping a special edition of “Elawvate: Build and Grow Your Law Firm.” Ben and Jeff walk through 10 proven strategies for building a financially successful law firm, covering everything from dominating a niche and making data-driven decisions to scaling without losing your culture and building systems designed for the law firm of the future. They also take audience questions. If you’ve had a question about being a law firm entrepreneur, tune in; someone else may have wondered the same thing – and Ben and Jeff may have answered it on the air.
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☑️ Ben Gideon | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram
☑️ Jeff Wright
☑️ Gideon Asen on LinkedIn | Facebook | YouTube | Instagram
☑️ Rahul Ravipudi | LinkedIn | Instagram
☑️ Panish Shea Ravipudi LLP on LinkedIn | Facebook | YouTube | Instagram
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Welcome to Elawvate, the
podcast where trial lawyers,
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Ben Gideon and Rahul Ravaputi talk
about the real issues that come with the
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fight for justice. So let's
find inspiration in the wins.
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Let's learn from the
losses. But most of all,
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let's keep learning and getting better
and keep getting back in the ring.
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Are you ready to elevate your own
trial practice, law firm, and life?
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Let's get started. Produced
and powered by LawPods.
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Hey, it's Ben.
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Rahul and I started this podcast because
we love hanging out with fellow trial
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lawyers and sharing ideas
that can make us all better.
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And both of our firms also regularly
collaborate with other lawyers across the
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countries in cases where we can add value.
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If you're interested in collaboration or
even if you just have a case or an idea
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that you want to bounce
off us or brainstorm,
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Rahul and I are going to be hosting
confidential case workshops the
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first Wednesday of each
month. So here's how it works.
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If you have a case or an idea that you
want to talk about or brainstorm with us,
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just send me an email to ben@elawvate.net,
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E-L-A-W-V-A-T-E. Net,
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or go online to elevate.net and
submit a case workshop request.
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We will schedule you for a confidential
30-minute Zoom meeting where we can talk
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about your case to see if we can help.
If you feel like there would be good
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value in collaborating on the case
further, we can talk about that. If not,
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that's okay too.
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We enjoy helping other trial
lawyers because we know
someday you'd be willing to
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do the same for us if we
needed your help. So again,
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if you're interested in
workshopping your case with us,
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just send an email to ben@elawvate.net
or fill out a case workshop request at
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elawvate.net, and Rahul and I will
look forward to chatting with you soon.
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Today's episode of the Elawvate
Podcast is brought to you by Filevine.
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Filevine has a software
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Rahul, you guys work with Steno.
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not just in court reporting services,
but even some of their technology tools.
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We're talking about AI a little bit
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Genius, where they can summarize and
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transcripts is so useful. If you
haven't tried it, definitely try it.
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Now we're brought to you by Hype Legal.
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Hype Legal does digital marketing
web development for trial
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firms. It's owned by our good
friends, Micah and Tyler.
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They recently redeveloped our firm's
website, so you can check our website out.
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If you like it, give them a call and
they can help you out too. And finally,
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we're brought to you by Expert Institute.
Rahul, you guys work with them, right?
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We both use Expert Institute because you
always need to be cutting edge in the
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experts that we use in our cases.
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Going to the repeat experts every single
time is going to make you a lesser
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lawyer and you always want to keep up and
the best way to do that is with Expert
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Institute.
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For more than four years, you've helped
us elevate the practice of law. Now,
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we're ready to take on
the business of law.
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Say hello to the new podcast
from the Elawvate team,
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build and grow your law firm.
Enjoy this special preview episode.
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It's like Rachel was
saying, thank you very much.
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This is the first time they're doing it,
first time we're doing a live podcast,
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so keep your fingers
crossed and we're excited.
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So welcome to a live
taping of the Elawvate:
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Build and Grow Your Law Firm podcast.
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We're coming to you from the
Main State Bar Association,
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winter bar conference and the fantastic
Western Portland Harborview in
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Portland, Maine. I'm Jeff Wright,
Chief Operating Officer at Gideon Asen,
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and I'm here with Ben Gideon, owner,
partner, founder of Gideon Asen.
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How's it going today, Ben?
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It's going well, Jeff. Are you nervous?
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You were commenting that the lights are
awfully bright and I know you're now
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entering the big time here.
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Yeah, big time. It's one way to put it.
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I would like to.
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Point out-.
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Jeff has humble roots.
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Yeah. I'd like to point out that Ben
said we were dressing down today.
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And so I wore jeans and a pullover
and Ben showed up in what looks like
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a brand new suit. So
apologies for my appearance.
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I was duped.
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This is a common theme in our
business. But as I pointed out,
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since you're not a lawyer, you
don't really need to wear a suit.
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You're not expected to wear a suit. I.
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Do love how you point out how I'm not
a lawyer all the time, but that's okay.
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I consider that an advantage.
It is, but we won't go there.
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Before we get started, we've
had a busy couple weeks,
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so I don't know if you want to kind of
talk about what we've been doing as a
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firm and then we can introduce for sure.
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Yeah, sure.
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So we just got back from our leadership
retreat three days out in Denver,
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Colorado,
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where the leadership team
focuses on our goals,
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what we've achieved for the past year,
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and then what our plan is for the
future year. Very productive meeting.
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I think we identified some important
goals and keeping our progress
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moving towards our four-year
vision. What did you think?
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Yeah, I thought it was very
productive out in Denver.
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And then one of the things, and we'll
talk about it later, is at the firm,
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we try and have as much transparency
as possible with the entire team.
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So a week after we got back from our
senior management retreat in Denver,
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we had an all day offsite retreat
for all staff and covered our
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strategic plan, our goals,
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our plans for not only
first quarter of 26,
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but for the year up through our
strategic plan ended at the end of
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2028. It's nice. It's
been a busy couple weeks.
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I think you left out that you were
skiing in Austria before that.
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I was, but that doesn't have
anything to do with our business.
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No, it doesn't.
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No, we did manage to get to a rodeo
in Denver, which was interesting.
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I don't know if anyone here has
been to the rodeo in the West,
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but they have something called
Mutton Buston. Anyone aware of that?
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It's where they take little kids and
they put hockey helmets on them and put
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them on sheep, and then they go in
like ... It's like a bucking Bronco,
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but for infants and children.
It seems like child abuse to me,
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but they love it out there. We're going
to introduce that in Maine, I think.
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All right, let's move into the
substance of the program here.
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All right. So we have a
pretty truncated timeframe.
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So we have 10 topics we want to
get through in less than an hour.
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Each one of these topics would
be a full hour unto themselves.
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So we're going to be as quick and
concise as possible. As Rachel said,
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this program today is the top 10
proven strategies every lawyer,
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entrepreneur needs to know to build
a financially successful law firm.
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At the end of this,
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they have allotted us time when we're
done with the podcast to do a Q&A.
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So I would welcome anyone that
has a question or anything or
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needs more clarity on
something at the end.
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We will do a Q&A if anyone's interested.
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I know it's the last session of the day
and most people will be running for the
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Hills, but we are available.
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Yeah, you can come up and sit at the table
with a mic and you can join us on the
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podcast and introduce yourselves.
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And if you have a question or want to
take issue with anything we've said or any
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discussion point, we're happy
to do that at the end. So Jeff,
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I thought before we covered the topics,
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can you just give us maybe the 30 second
summary of where we are as a firm so
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people will understand the context from
which we're discussing the points we're
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talking about today?
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For those of you not
familiar with Gideon Asen,
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I'm going to give you kind of the Reader's
Digest version and paint a picture on
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what makes these guys think they can
get up here and give their opinions and
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advice on what makes a financially
viable, successful firm.
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So Gideon Asen, as most of you know,
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is a plaintiff firm focused on
complex medical malpractice and
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catastrophic personal injury.
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The firm was started in 2020
by Ben Gideon and Taylor Asen,
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the other founder partner. And really
it started in 2020 with three of them.
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Since 2020,
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the firm has grown not only in staffing,
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but also in revenue where
the firm from 2020 to
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2024 added more than a million dollars
in revenue every year in existence.
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At the end of 2024,
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Ben and the leadership team
met and they said, "Well, geez,
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we've met all our goals from what we
wanted to do to start the firm." And
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somebody said,
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"So what's next?" And so the team
took that to heart and wrote a very
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detailed four year strategic plan.
And one of the first things on that
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plan was to bring in a
chief operating officer,
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preferably a chief operating officer
that did not have a legal background that
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could look at a firm from a business
standpoint and not through the eyes of an
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attorney that chief operating
officer happens to be me.
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And I started in- The.
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Jury's still out. The.
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Jury's still out. I
started in January of 2025,
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so I've been there roughly, well, a
little over 12 months now. In 2025,
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which we just ended,
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we were able to increase
our revenue by 100%
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and we've increased our staffing by 50%.
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We've gone from 12 full-time employees
to 18, and our revenue doubled this year.
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Coming off of our strategic plan,
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we plan on adding two or three
more positions this year,
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and we are projected based upon our
pipeline and everything to double our
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revenue again in 2026.
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So we want to talk about some of the
strategies that we've implemented and that
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we think firms that are
looking to grow and expand
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and/or people that are looking to start
their own firms could have some benefit
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from. All.
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Right. Let's jump into it.
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All right. So number one,
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everyone should have a handout
on their tables if you don't.
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We do have more back there.
And the first one, Ben,
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I guess my first question, Ben,
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is how did you come up with these 10
things and kind of the title of this
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program?
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The 10 items here are all ...
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So my process in trying to understand
how to build and grow a law
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firm,
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I started probably like many of you
as a lawyer only. For many years,
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I had a job at a firm and I practiced
law. That was my primary work.
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And I didn't really spend a lot of time
focused on learning much about running a
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business or running a law firm.
When we started our business,
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I've invested a lot of
time and I've become very
interested in the topics of the
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business issues relating to
building and growing a firm.
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And part of that has been reading.
So I've read a lot of books.
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I listened to podcasts,
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but some of the books that were most
informative and influential for me are
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listed here under each topic.
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And my process is I'll read one
of these books and as I do it,
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I take notes and then I
consolidate those down. And then
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over time, I've moved those
into different categories.
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And so that's sort of how
the 10 categories came to be.
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It's a distillation of my learning,
I would say both from my reading,
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but also from our own experiences
that we've gone through,
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mostly learning by trial and error,
making many mistakes, fixing problems,
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and coming to understandings
about different things.
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Well, kicking into number one,
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the crux of your thing there
is being a great lawyer doesn't
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necessarily translate to being a great
owner of your own firm. And I guess,
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why do you feel that way and why
do you use the word entrepreneur
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kind of in the title of this,
which I think is important?
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Yeah. I mean, this is something that
took me a little bit of time to come to.
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I don't know. Has anyone here read
Michael Gerber's book, The E-Myth?
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The central concept of the book is that
you can either work in a business or you
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can work on a business. If
you're working in a business,
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you're doing the tasks that are necessary
to make that business successful.
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So as lawyers,
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typically what we're doing every day
is legal work and practicing law and
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serving our clients. That's
great. I did that for a long time.
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I got a lot of joy and satisfaction out
of it, and I still do to some extent.
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If you want to build a business though,
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you can't just work in your business.
You have to work on your business,
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and that's a different skillset
that involves ... In fact,
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it means you have to give up a fair
amount of the day-to-day legal work and
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focus on the business issues relating
to building and growing the business,
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which we'll get into. So it's sort of
that core insight that to some extent
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by training yourself to focus
only on doing legal work,
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you're not in a great
mindset to build a business.
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We have a whole episode just on this
topic, and it can consume an hour or more,
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but I do distinguish between ...
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There are many lawyers who
very successfully translate
their legal skills to
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a very successful practice,
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building a solo or a small practice
with a couple of lawyers and a
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few staff. That's not what I mean.
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I think that that's very doable even
if you're not really focused on the
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issues relating to business
development and scaling.
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When I'm talking about
building a business,
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and that's why the word
entrepreneurial is important to me,
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I'm talking about building
an entrepreneurial business
that's designed for
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growth, because those are
two very different things.
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Having a platform where you're
just using a business as a
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foundation to sell your
own personal services,
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that's not what I mean
by growing a business,
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because there's very limited business
related skillsets you need to do to
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accomplish that successfully.
And I don't mean to minimize that.
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I think that can be a very
successful career and practice,
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and many people do very well
like that, and that's fine.
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There's no reason you need to change.
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But the goal, if somebody wants
to build and scale a business ...
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Right. And I guess I would ask you, Jeff,
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since you've been here a year now and
you came in midstream from a different
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sector, brand new to the legal business,
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how do you see your role and
your past experience in business
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integrating into a legal setting?
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I was surprised though-.
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You should tell people what you used
to do before this, just so they know.
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Well, again, probably going
to hold it against me.
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I was a banker for 25 years.
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We like bankers.
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You like bank? You figured
that? It's the way ... Oh, geez.
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I've tried to shed the look. So
I was in banking for 25 years,
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kind of climbed the ladder on my last
role as a chief operating officer of a
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billion dollar bank. And long story short,
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I got sick of banking and wanted to
change, but thought my operational skills,
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my project management skills and
everything were translatable to another
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business. Didn't know what business
it was. Saw the opportunity.
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A recruiter reached out to me at Gideon
Asen and I was trepidatious because I'm
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like, "Okay, it's a plaintiff firm. What
does that mean?" I was literally like,
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"How does that differ from a
defendant's firm or what do they do?
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" And it's personal injury. And I'm like,
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"How is it going to translate and do they
really want to know an attorney?" And
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I think this might sound arrogant,
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but I think it's probably one of the
better decisions they made is to bring in
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somebody that knew nothing about
the legal world because I look at
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everything through a completely
different set of eyes and the
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skills are very translatable to
building and scaling a business
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and working with business owners
over the last two decades,
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it doesn't matter whether it's an
attorney or whether it's somebody
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starting a car wash business.
The scale and the
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concerns that every small business
owner has are translatable.
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And Ben had said to me during
the interview process, he said,
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"Most law firms are run by attorneys
and they run like law firms, Jeff.
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They don't run like businesses.
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We need to translate this into
running like a business.".
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Does that mean growth?
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Is that what we're talking
about here's nothing but growth?
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We're supposed to repeat the questions
because they won't pick up on the mic.
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So the question from the audience
is, does that mean growth? Jeff,
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why don't you take that?
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I don't know if it necessarily means
growth. I mean, I think first of all,
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you have to look how the business is run,
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whether your ultimate goal
is going to be growth.
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One of the first things we worked
on was the firm's mission and
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the firm's culture. What type
of firm do we want to be?
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What do we want our attorneys
and our staff to represent?
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How do we want our day-to-day to be there?
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And once we kind of solidified the
culture that we wanted and the core
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values,
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that has really translated into
virtually every decision we've made.
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Every hiring decision, yes,
we look at resumes, yes,
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we look at experience and everything
else, but it comes back to,
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do they fit the firm's culture? Do
they fit the firm's core values?
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So I think it's a lot more than
profits and scaling and growth.
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It's what do you want your
business to represent?
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And to Ben's point at the beginning,
if you want your business to be,
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you're a sole practitioner and
you're not looking to scale,
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you're looking to just provide good
services under your own umbrella,
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great. But what do you want those services
to be? What's your niche going to be?
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Are you going to try and go head to
head with a Goodwin Proctor as a sole
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practitioner? You're probably going
to lose. So what's your niche?
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What's your value that you're
going to add to those clients?
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And to be able to make those
decisions and look at them internally,
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long answer to your question, I
apologize. It's more than profits.
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It's more than scaling.
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It's developing the
business that you want.
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To be in every day. You
moved into topic eight,
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hiring for values and
reinforcing the culture.
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So I think we should cover that because
we're going to run out of time to cover
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everything. But so I would say, first of
all, we have to be practical about it.
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You have to get to a certain size and
scale and revenue before you can afford to
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hire somebody full-time as a chief
operating officer that's not available to
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everybody.
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And I don't recommend that if you're a
one or two lawyer firm with a couple of
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staff. But what happened
for us was we got to ...
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When you start an entrepreneurial
endeavor, at the beginning,
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you're doing everything, you're wearing
all the hats. And that's my partner,
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Taylor and I were doing that
initially. We were doing the finance,
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we were doing the HR, we were
doing the legal services,
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we were doing the marketing,
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all of it.
And what we found as we grew over time was
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we weren't capable of doing all of those
things and at least we're doing them
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very well.
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And so there got to be a point where
our highest and best use was no longer,
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for example, doing HR. What
happens is, and I think,
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and this goes to the core values
point in topic eight and the culture,
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we kept running into growth
problems and ceilings in our
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business because of internal
conflict and culture.
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We would have staff that were not fully
bought into our mission in certain ways.
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There was internal conflict
at times between staff.
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It made for a difficult environment.
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My partner and I would then get into
policing internal disputes where someone
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would come to me with a criticism or
complaint and then they would go to my
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partner and there would be ...
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So just got to be that navigating
the people part of the business
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became emotionally draining
and distracting and
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having us, once we got to
a certain scale of people,
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more than a dozen employees,
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that became an overwhelming problem and
one that was distracting us from our
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mission.
So hiring Jeff allowed us to offload that.
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I think the thing that Jeff brings to
our organization more than any other
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single value is that
he's extremely good at
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interpersonal relationships and
making everyone on our team feel
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100% supported and valued and
bringing out the best in everyone.
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And since Jeff has come,
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we've had some people that didn't
fit into our culture that left
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and had to leave and we've hired many
new people and we've been very careful
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about vetting people to make sure they
are a good cultural fit so we don't go
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back to a world where we
have internal conflict.
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But I think anybody who runs a business
would probably agree that the people
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part of the business is the hardest part.
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And particularly when you're
dealing with law firms,
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because lawyers tend to
have very big egos and Well,
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not present company, but ... Yeah, no,
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I mean the reality is
law firms generally ...
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And I started my career at
a big firm in New York City,
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then I was at a relatively good sized
firm in Maine and then started my own
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firm. So I've seen it
at all different levels.
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Law firms tend to have a model
where there's two sets of rules,
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one that lawyers get to play by and then
one that everybody else gets to play
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by. Of course, the staff
sees that right away,
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that they have to follow the
rules, but the lawyers don't.
Speaker:
And that already creates a toxic internal
culture, if you ask me. Secondly,
Speaker:
you then tolerate people because let's
say they're good rainmakers or they're
Speaker:
very exceptional at their
craft of practicing law,
Speaker:
but they're like frankly assholes or
they treat the staff poorly or they don't
Speaker:
represent your firm to the external
world in a positive way that you want,
Speaker:
but they're generating a lot of revenue.
And most firms tolerate that because
Speaker:
the bottom line is revenue. If you
value culture, you don't tolerate that.
Speaker:
And I should say, one of our core
values, and we talk about core values,
Speaker:
is one of our things here is making
decisions based on science and data,
Speaker:
not fear or ego.
Speaker:
And we have incorporated science
and data into our hiring process.
Speaker:
When we hired Jeff,
Speaker:
every candidate for his position
took a psychological test.
Speaker:
All of our leadership
team took that same test.
Speaker:
It was extremely valuable in identifying
characteristics of people that you
Speaker:
might want or not want.
Speaker:
And it's surprisingly difficult to
ascertain that through just like a
Speaker:
typical interview process.
Speaker:
We've now created a tailored
psychological profile
Speaker:
for a trial lawyer that we had the
company make just for us that we are
Speaker:
now able to use to get science and data
before we hire a lawyer for our firm.
Speaker:
And if anyone's looking
for a job, we're hiring,
Speaker:
but you have to pass the
psychological test first,
Speaker:
which means you can deal with Jeff mostly.
Speaker:
So you want to move on
to another topic here?
Speaker:
Yeah, we're all over
the map, but it's good.
Speaker:
Well, we covered topic eight now. All.
Speaker:
Right. So we've done one and eight,
so we only got eight more. It's good.
Speaker:
That's exactly how I knew
this would go. Number two,
Speaker:
treat business decisions with the
same rigor as legal decisions.
Speaker:
What do you mean by that?
Speaker:
This one's very simple,
Speaker:
and I think it's something that gives
me confidence in building a business
Speaker:
because as lawyers,
Speaker:
we're all really good at doing
analytical work and problem
Speaker:
solving. After all, that's what
we're there for, right? Clients,
Speaker:
whatever they're transactional,
commercial, criminal defense, whatever,
Speaker:
somebody comes to you for a problem, you
help them solve it. And fundamentally,
Speaker:
that's all running of businesses.
It's a different set of problems,
Speaker:
but the issue is that I
found is that as lawyers,
Speaker:
we employ a lot of rigor when it comes
to solving the problems for our clients
Speaker:
in the legal setting,
Speaker:
but then when it comes to running the
business part of what we're doing,
Speaker:
we don't employ the same amount of rigor.
Speaker:
So we've tried to impose those kind
of systems of rigor onto our business
Speaker:
decision part of the business in addition
to the trial part. It's been really
Speaker:
great because that's what I'm used
to anyway. For every case I do,
Speaker:
I impose that kind of rigor.
Speaker:
So it's very natural to do
it in the business setting.
Speaker:
And some examples of that are,
Speaker:
there've been a lot of really
bad decisions we've almost made.
Speaker:
Yes.
Speaker:
We've made some really bad decisions.
We've made some really bad decisions,
Speaker:
but we've also avoided making some
because we have a system for decision
Speaker:
making, which involves multiple
people that all have strong
Speaker:
personalities and points
of view that weigh in.
Speaker:
So there's a vetting process
where if Ben has an idea,
Speaker:
it doesn't within 24 hours
translate into execution.
Speaker:
There's a process that's
discussed, vetted,
Speaker:
and then decided upon by smart people
that are all willing to speak their mind.
Speaker:
Part of that is having people that
are willing to speak their mind.
Speaker:
So one of our values is truth and
communication, openness and transparency.
Speaker:
As Jeff said, I come up with a terrible
idea. Hopefully Jeff will tell me, Ben,
Speaker:
that's a really bad idea. And that has
led to a lot of near misses, I would say,
Speaker:
where we were about to buy very expensive
buildings or hire people that we
Speaker:
shouldn't have hired,
Speaker:
or you can go down the list of things
where we almost made bad decisions.
Speaker:
That more or less covers that topic.
I mean, the books that I cite there,
Speaker:
Ray Dalio Principles,
Speaker:
great book that talks a lot about this
and the need to confront reality where it
Speaker:
is, to be very honest about the reality
that you're dealing with and not
Speaker:
characterize the reality in
the way that you want it to be.
Speaker:
You have to deal with reality
as it is. Second book there,
Speaker:
the Daniel Kahneman book,
Thinking Fast and Slow,
Speaker:
that's all about cognitive bias.
And we all make so many decisions,
Speaker:
not even aware of it
based on cognitive bias,
Speaker:
whether it's group think
because everybody's thinking
the same thing and you're
Speaker:
not having a contrary position
or a bias towards a risk aversion
Speaker:
or the bias towards sunk cost fallacy
where you started down a path and you
Speaker:
continue down the path because you've
already invested in it without realizing
Speaker:
you're just putting good money after bad.
So many things like that that affect
Speaker:
decision making have to be avoided
to make the best decisions.
Speaker:
So do you want to add to a
topic two about decision making?
Speaker:
No, just, I mean,
Speaker:
there's a great quote that I try and
abide by when it comes to decision making.
Speaker:
John Wooden, the legendary
basketball coach at UCLA said,
Speaker:
"Be quick,
Speaker:
but don't hurry." There's a lot of
truth to that where you have so many
Speaker:
decisions every day,
Speaker:
whether you're trying a case or
whether you're running your business,
Speaker:
that you need to be decisive
and you need to be focused,
Speaker:
but be quick,
Speaker:
but don't hurry because hurried
decisions usually lead to bad decisions.
Speaker:
We try and avoid that wherever we
can and we put things in place,
Speaker:
like Ben said internally to avoid it,
we're going to make bad decisions,
Speaker:
but we have metrics and processes to
Speaker:
minimize those as much as possible.
Speaker:
Yeah. And that's a good segue to topic
three, design before you execute,
Speaker:
but don't over-engineer early.
Speaker:
So there's a good quote I've
heard from many sources.
Speaker:
I don't know who quoted it initially,
but something to the effect of,
Speaker:
"If you have no plan,
Speaker:
you'll certainly get there."That's
really been a driving force for us.
Speaker:
When Taylor and I started this firm
before we even began, we sat down,
Speaker:
we wrote a business plan and it's really
apocryphal because if you look back at
Speaker:
that plan, even our
year-to-year revenue goals,
Speaker:
we literally met them
within a short range of 50,
Speaker:
$100,000 year to year,
Speaker:
which just demonstrates the power of
having a goal and having a clear idea of
Speaker:
what you're setting out to accomplish,
but the concept of don't over engineer.
Speaker:
I don't know if any of you are
familiar with the lean startup concept.
Speaker:
This is sort of the stuff that is very
hot in Silicon Valley with especially
Speaker:
tech startups,
Speaker:
AI startups. There's an author named
Eric Reese who wrote that lean startup,
Speaker:
but the concept is minimal
viable product now.
Speaker:
This is how tech startups
and software companies work.
Speaker:
And the idea is that you don't
want to spend inordinate amount of
Speaker:
time early on in design
because without having
Speaker:
enough feedback to understand if your
design is really salient to your consumer,
Speaker:
to the public and the market. So
what you want to do is put out,
Speaker:
and this is the software concept,
Speaker:
you put out the minimum viable
product and then you iterate,
Speaker:
you're constantly refining, you're
constantly improving with feedback.
Speaker:
And so that's what we've tried to do in
Speaker:
our service sector type of business
Because we don't want to get paralyzed by
Speaker:
trying to design the perfect system.
Speaker:
We want to design something that
we want to have large vision and
Speaker:
goals and then just start moving
forward on that and then getting
Speaker:
feedback loops to help us iterate.
I mean,
Speaker:
one example is we recently launched
a television radio ad campaign.
Speaker:
We've never done that before.
Speaker:
I've been doing this for almost 25 years
and have never done direct to consumer
Speaker:
marketing. Now, how do we do that?
What's the perfect ad campaign?
Speaker:
You could spend years
designing a perfect campaign.
Speaker:
There probably is no
definition of perfect.
Speaker:
We used our core value of science and
data. So we designed a messaging campaign.
Speaker:
We actually did survey data where we put
that out there and compared it to other
Speaker:
competitors on the market and got
real world information for that.
Speaker:
70% of the people who took the survey
said they would hire us based on our
Speaker:
messaging compared to our competitor
commercials if they were only basing
Speaker:
their buying decision on the
commercial. So that was some data point.
Speaker:
It wasn't a ton of data,
Speaker:
but it was good enough. Then we launched
it and now we have a feedback loop.
Speaker:
So every client who contacts our office,
Speaker:
our staff takes very detailed
information about how they found us,
Speaker:
what they're looking for for lawyers,
Speaker:
what the characteristics are in a lawyer
that they want to hire, all of that.
Speaker:
Our marketing director, Matt, over there,
is shaking his head. He's fantastic,
Speaker:
by the way. So now we're iterating.
We've got a feedback loop.
Speaker:
We've got data and we can
make smart decisions on that.
Speaker:
We could have spent years designing the
perfect campaign and we still wouldn't
Speaker:
be doing anything right now. So that's
just one example of that concept.
Speaker:
So understanding the topic four,
Speaker:
understanding which risks
to take and which to avoid,
Speaker:
this is kind of risk management. I've
got a spiel on that, but I'm interested.
Speaker:
If there's one main difference,
Speaker:
I would say between banking and
trial law on the plaintiff's
Speaker:
side,
Speaker:
it's going from a highly risk averse
culture to a highly risk tolerant
Speaker:
culture.
Speaker:
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Speaker:
So what have you noticed about that, Jeff?
Speaker:
I mean, to a certain extent,
but at the end of the day,
Speaker:
there are so many parallels to banking
because you assess the risks of a case
Speaker:
and you look and you see maybe what the
Speaker:
insurance caps are. And
if you take it to trial,
Speaker:
you might get X number of
dollars. If you settle it,
Speaker:
you're going to get X number of
dollars. What's right for the client?
Speaker:
What's right for the firm?
How long is it going to take?
Speaker:
How much case costs are you going to
carry for two or three years before it
Speaker:
settles? So you're assessing your risk
virtually every day with your cases.
Speaker:
And it's the same thing
on the bank side. I mean,
Speaker:
especially on the lending side.
Speaker:
You could do a $40 million
loan for a commercial customer,
Speaker:
but what's your risk and how are you
going to hedge it? And so there's a lot of
Speaker:
parallels to it.
Speaker:
And I think every firm
has to make a decision or
Speaker:
there has to be tactical times when
you want to take risk and when it makes
Speaker:
sense.
Speaker:
And you have to be very
clear on your risk tolerance
Speaker:
as a firm, but also on
a case by case basis,
Speaker:
which I'm sure is what you're
going to lend your wisdom to.
Speaker:
I'm very interested in this concept of
risk because it permeates everything we
Speaker:
do.
Speaker:
We always have to counsel clients on
what are the risks of taking a case
Speaker:
to trial versus settlement. In the past,
Speaker:
you were always operating on very
limited data because it was largely past
Speaker:
history and intuition, which
isn't notoriously unreliable.
Speaker:
We now do big data studies
on every significant case,
Speaker:
which really in our practice
is really every case.
Speaker:
And that gives us at least
more ... It's not perfect,
Speaker:
but it gives us more data we can work
with in order to do this kind of risk
Speaker:
assessment. I've read two books recently,
Speaker:
which I think are phenomenal
on the topic of risk.
Speaker:
One is the Nate Silver
book called On the Edge.
Speaker:
I don't know if anyone here read that
book. It's Nate Silver was known for 530,
Speaker:
was it 536, 538,
Speaker:
The Political Prognostication website.
He's also a
Speaker:
quasi-professional poker player.
Speaker:
So the book is kind of like talking
about the risks involved in poker,
Speaker:
how people in Silicon Valley with the
startup culture evaluate risk and then
Speaker:
how the rest of the world looks at
risk. And it's pretty fascinating.
Speaker:
There's another book called
The Black Swan by Nasim Taleb,
Speaker:
which is also a take on
risk. Like most things,
Speaker:
there's inconsistent and
contradictory concepts involved.
Speaker:
The concept of this black swan is
that there's a lot in the world that's
Speaker:
inherently unpredictable.
Speaker:
And yet most things that we
deal with relating to risk,
Speaker:
like if you're going to invest
in the S&P 500 index, well,
Speaker:
you're told that that's low risk,
Speaker:
but it's not low risk when some
Speaker:
macroeconomic force occurs
that causes everybody to go
Speaker:
down and lose their shirts, which
happens more often than you'd expect.
Speaker:
Like once every decade, that basically
happens. The concept he came up with,
Speaker:
which made him very successful
in financial investing
was you have to identify
Speaker:
asymmetric opportunities for
asymmetric returns where the
Speaker:
unpredictability works in your
favor and not against you.
Speaker:
And there's no better world
where that exists than trial law
Speaker:
because when we tried a case recently
where the offer on the table was
Speaker:
$300,000 and our verdict was 25 million.
Speaker:
So there's an opportunity
for asymmetric returns.
Speaker:
So that's a black swan working for you.
Now, in another case we had recently,
Speaker:
there was an offer in excess
of $30 million on the table.
Speaker:
We could have taken that
case to trial, but if we did,
Speaker:
the unpredictable result
would've worked against us there.
Speaker:
So the asymmetric return probably
would have worked against us.
Speaker:
So trying to figure out
whatever your business is,
Speaker:
where are those opportunities
for asymmetric returns based on
Speaker:
unpredictability that you can
take advantage of and other people
Speaker:
aren't seeing?
And so we've really tried to do that.
Speaker:
And it's always a challenge
to identify where the
Speaker:
tipping point is there. But I
would say that back to that,
Speaker:
so many decisions that
we make are not based on
Speaker:
objective criteria or
expected value calculations of
Speaker:
actual results. They're
based on things like,
Speaker:
"I'm really worried that I won't be
able to make payroll this month," or,
Speaker:
"Somebody told me about
something that happened to them,
Speaker:
so this is probably going to
happen to me. " Or like we said,
Speaker:
"I've already invested so much money
into this. I have to keep going.
Speaker:
" Those are all the kind of cognitive
biases or individual fears that
Speaker:
cause you to make decisions that are not
objectively maximizing your ability to
Speaker:
manage risks.
Speaker:
So we really have tried to reduce
the number of decisions we make
Speaker:
on those kind of anecdotal
knee-jerk thinking. And one
Speaker:
example is we've developed a very
complex settlement matrix where,
Speaker:
like Jeff was describing
earlier, we can plug in there.
Speaker:
So we're thinking about
advising our clients about
the risk of settlement versus
Speaker:
trial
Speaker:
or continuing down the path for a while
before we settle or so other things.
Speaker:
And I think lawyers often think
about that as it's either A or B,
Speaker:
but you're forgetting about things
like, well, what's the opportunity cost?
Speaker:
Because you're employing staff and
resources to litigate this case, right?
Speaker:
They could be spending time on something
else that may have a higher upside.
Speaker:
You're also forgetting about,
Speaker:
so you think about the first
order benefit of a settlement,
Speaker:
money in the pocket of your client or
money in the pocket of your law firm,
Speaker:
but there's second order consequences.
Speaker:
What is the social value
of that public trial to
Speaker:
getting the word out about certain
conduct that your client wants to shine a
Speaker:
light on? What is the downstream value
to your law firm or the reputational
Speaker:
value of winning a big verdict and getting
the next big case because you've been
Speaker:
willing to do that?
Speaker:
If you're only looking at first order
consequences and not second and third
Speaker:
order consequences,
Speaker:
you're missing a lot of the value
in your decision making process.
Speaker:
So let's move on to the next,
Speaker:
so that's topic or we've
covered eight already.
Speaker:
So we've got 15 minutes. Let's do topic
five, financially unbreakable systems.
Speaker:
You want to talk about that, Jeff?
Speaker:
We were just ironically talking to our
accountant about those kind of things
Speaker:
this morning.
Speaker:
Financially unbreakable
systems. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker:
you kind of need money to do
everything that we're doing,
Speaker:
but along the lines of
you want to build, I mean,
Speaker:
and Ben puts it financially
unbreakable systems,
Speaker:
but you have to try and look
holistically at your firm.
Speaker:
You can't look ... Although you're
looking on a case by case basis,
Speaker:
you have to look at, again,
Speaker:
the second and third tiers of what
your decisions are going to make.
Speaker:
What's your cushion?
Speaker:
How much do you want for a cushion at
your firm and how your decisions are made
Speaker:
from that? We spend a lot of time,
we have a finance meeting every week.
Speaker:
We met with our accounting
firm an hour ago,
Speaker:
right before we came into this meeting
to already project and plan ahead for 26
Speaker:
and quarterlies and everything else
and made some decisions as a group
Speaker:
on how we're going to make the changes.
But you have to be very deliberate.
Speaker:
And I think part of that also is what
is, and Ben alluded to it before,
Speaker:
and it may deviate from this,
but I think it all goes the same.
Speaker:
But what is the best and
highest use of your time?
Speaker:
Because having Taylor Asin or
Ben Gideon opening the mail or
Speaker:
doing intake calls is not the
highest or best use of their time.
Speaker:
It's something that had to be done when
the firm was first started because they
Speaker:
didn't have the financial systems
in place to have other people
Speaker:
doing that.
Speaker:
You can't run out and hire eight people
when you first start unless maybe you're
Speaker:
a trust fund person or something
or somebody's gifted you.
Speaker:
And then your goals have
to be centered around being
Speaker:
financially viable and
understanding ... I mean,
Speaker:
case costs are perfect example, I think.
Speaker:
We fund our case costs internally
right now and we talk and it
Speaker:
revisits probably every quarter,
Speaker:
should we finance these?
Should we do this? Should we do that?
Speaker:
Should we charge interest? Should we ...
Speaker:
And we throw around
all these other things.
Speaker:
But when Ben was talking about
that matrix we put together,
Speaker:
a big part of that is the carry
costs of those case costs.
Speaker:
And you have $500,000 worth of case
costs that have been out there for three
Speaker:
years, you better factor
that into your decision.
Speaker:
And when you have a pipeline of cases
that are on your books that are getting to
Speaker:
the point where those case costs and
the experts are starting to ramp up,
Speaker:
where are those funds coming from
and how is it going to be allocated
Speaker:
appropriately?
Speaker:
And having those systems
in place to help drive your
Speaker:
decisions is critical.
Speaker:
Yeah. I mean, the core insight in
financially unbreakable systems is that
Speaker:
durability is critical.
If you can't survive,
Speaker:
you're not going to
accomplish anything else.
Speaker:
So your first order of
business has to be to build a
Speaker:
strong foundation that
allows you to survive.
Speaker:
And that includes through
weathering storms when
Speaker:
not all of your projections come to
fruition where, I mean, we have to assume,
Speaker:
everybody who knows me well knows
that I've lost a lot of trials and
Speaker:
I lost a very big trial a year ago that
we had a huge amount of money and a huge
Speaker:
offer on the table.
Speaker:
And we were able to weather that
storm and it didn't really even
Speaker:
impact our bottom line
materially because we had a
Speaker:
strong financial footing.
If we didn't have that,
Speaker:
a single case like that could have
bankrupted our firm and meant we wouldn't
Speaker:
have been around any longer to do our
further cases. So you've got to earn ...
Speaker:
I feel like you've got to earn the right
for that. If I want to go try a case,
Speaker:
I've got to earn the right to do it by
making sure I'm doing it from a position
Speaker:
of strength, not I need to win that case.
If I go into trial and I need to win,
Speaker:
it's going to be desperate.
Speaker:
It's like when you need to have a date
and you're going up to every girl in the
Speaker:
bar asking her for a number,
Speaker:
there's a smell of desperation that
everyone consents and you don't succeed in
Speaker:
that setting. You have to
be coming to it with a ...
Speaker:
And I'm not talking from
personal experience.
Speaker:
I.
Speaker:
Just.
Speaker:
Didn't know if you had firsthand.
Speaker:
Experience.
Speaker:
With.
Speaker:
That. And then anyway,
Speaker:
that doesn't apply in the modern
world with the internet anyway,
Speaker:
but I've been married for 25 years,
Speaker:
so I don't know how any
of that works these days.
Speaker:
I think the other point
there, and one thing-.
Speaker:
The other point is we
need a good HR person.
Speaker:
Which we have.
Speaker:
Right.
Speaker:
I'm the HR person as well. But
I think another point there,
Speaker:
and we talk about it a lot when it comes
back to culture and core values is you
Speaker:
can't make case decisions based on your
Speaker:
finances because they're
going to be bad decisions.
Speaker:
And what I mean by that is you
decide to settle a case maybe
Speaker:
prematurely because it'd be
nice for that firm to get that
Speaker:
$700,000 in the bank
and you can't put your
Speaker:
clients in that position and
you can't have your firm in that
Speaker:
position and building that financial
durability so you never have to
Speaker:
make that decision as critical.
Speaker:
All right. Moving on. Topic six,
Speaker:
dominate a niche instead
of fighting market leaders.
Speaker:
So one of my favorite books on that is
Seth Godin has written a lot of books on
Speaker:
marketing. The one I thought was the
best is called This Is Marketing.
Speaker:
His sort of core insight
is that your initial
Speaker:
foray when you're starting any kind of
an entrepreneurial venture is to identify
Speaker:
the smallest viable market because
by identifying the smallest
Speaker:
market for your services,
Speaker:
what you're doing is
mapping what you do best,
Speaker:
what you bring your highest and best
value to a niche that is going to benefit
Speaker:
from that service.
Speaker:
So if you were starting a small firm
going head to head with Pierce Atwood and
Speaker:
being a full service law
firm that offers M&A and
Speaker:
bankruptcy and whatever,
immigration, so forth,
Speaker:
you're not going to compete effectively
with Pierce Outwood doing that,
Speaker:
right? But if you are really
good at one niche thing and can
Speaker:
make a name for yourself in that,
Speaker:
you will grow rapidly by
reputational value and word of mouth
Speaker:
and so forth. And so we did
that when we started our firm.
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We were very deliberate about focusing
like a laser on we are the best at doing
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complex medical malpractice cases.
And for the first several years,
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I would say the lion's share of our
new cases were in the field of medical
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malpractice.
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It's a good niche because very few
lawyers want to do those cases.
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They're expensive, they're complicated,
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there isn't a lot of room for mistakes
there because you can quickly lose
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your shirt on them and so forth.
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So we did that and all of our
marketing was very targeted on
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that. We would write
articles focused on that.
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We wanted to establish kind of industry,
being industry leaders in that area,
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and I think that was very
effective for us. Since then,
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we've now expanded out into other
areas of kind of complex civil
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litigation and personal
injury cases beyond that.
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But if we had tried to
do that at the outset,
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I think we would've been
much less successful at
building our business because
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there's a million lawyers out there
who want to do garden variety personal
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injury cases. So that's just one
example. Whatever niche you're in,
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you want to simplify and narrow it to
the thing you do the very best and then
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put all of your focus and eggs
into that basket initially,
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develop those relationships,
build that business,
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and then gradually concentric
circle out from there.
Speaker:
I think you'd be great to talk about,
Jeff, building systems, metrics,
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and accountability.
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We build a lot of systems, metrics,
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and accountability.
So part of our strategic plan was we
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tried to narrow down and focus on what our
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biggest metrics and measurements
are going to be, KPIs,
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key performance indicators.
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And there are so many different things
that you could try and point to.
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And we've really narrowed it
down to less than a handful of
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things that we think are the
most important things to our
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firm. And then we back it up
with data and we track it.
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And it goes back to, again,
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one of our core tenants that we
try and do everything as data
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driven as possible, which I think
for attorneys, what I've learned is,
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especially for trial attorneys,
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a lot of it is your past experience
and your gut instinct and how you can
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react in real time and in front of a
jury or giving an opening or giving a
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closing. But those may serve
you very well in that role,
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but they may not serve you great
if you can't reel those things
Speaker:
in and have the metrics. And one
of our biggest KPIs is what we call
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qualified cases.
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And we look at it and we
decided what we felt were
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qualified cases for our
firm. What were cases that,
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to the niche part, we weren't
expanding beyond our reach.
Speaker:
We had the expertise, we have the systems,
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and we have the ability to handle
this case and add a lot of value
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to it. And we found out
that in order for us to get
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qualified cases,
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we probably have to talk to anywhere
between 500 and a thousand potential
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clients to get those qualified cases.
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So everything else that we're doing
is really trickling down from that
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KPI. If we have to talk to
that many potential clients,
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how does that impact our marketing?
How does that impact our intake team?
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How does that impact our onboarding team?
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How do we get the data so that
we are more focused from a
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marketing standpoint,
from an intake standpoint,
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to try and drive more qualified cases?
So I mean,
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Ben, I can kind of kick over to you.
Speaker:
Yeah. And the other part
of it is we try to do,
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we have a Monday meeting every meeting.
Speaker:
So anybody here run
their business or follow
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the EOS model, entrepreneurial
operating system.
Speaker:
It was kind of discussed in this
book called Traction by Gino Wickman,
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which I've listed here,
Speaker:
but there's some different
systems like that businesses,
Speaker:
entrepreneurial businesses use,
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and we use many of the
tenants of EOS in our company.
Speaker:
Part of that is having
regular meeting pulses,
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but one of those is we have a Monday
meeting every week where everyone in the
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firm is there for the
first hour of the meeting.
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We have a defined dashboard
that lists out our
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KPIs and key performance indicators that
apply to each different segment of our
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practice.
Speaker:
So every week we're looking at what
are the number of intakes that came in,
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how many phone calls were answered,
how many cases were accepted, rejected,
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how many are in this category,
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how many are in this category?
What is our settlements, revenues,
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how many case reviews were completed?
Speaker:
So the thing about that is there's
really at least one or two metrics that
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applies to every different
department in our firm.
Speaker:
So the intake department has metrics,
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the litigation teams have metrics.
Speaker:
And it's a way to kind of impose
some level of accountability,
Speaker:
public accountability
at the weekly meetings.
Speaker:
Public shaming.
Speaker:
And public shaming to some extent,
Speaker:
although we try to do it with good humor
most of the time, most of the time.
Speaker:
Yeah. So we do that and that
really drives everything we do.
Speaker:
And those KPIs are not arbitrary.
Speaker:
They were developed because they all
track to something we're trying to
Speaker:
accomplish in our
mission. So as Jeff said,
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we need a certain number of qualified
cases. For us, that's the key metric,
Speaker:
because for instance,
if we looked at revenue,
Speaker:
revenue in a plaintiff's firm goes
like this because you might have a big
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settlement in a big case, all of a sudden
your revenue looks really impressive,
Speaker:
but that's not really an indicator of
the health of your business because you
Speaker:
may not have another case like that
coming in the pipeline anytime soon.
Speaker:
And so if you were basing your decisions
only on revenue or your health of the
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business,
Speaker:
that would not be a good indicator.
So what we've come to as qualified cases,
Speaker:
because we know if we have a certain
number of qualified cases in our pipeline,
Speaker:
that will translate into a certain number
of revenue over a certain period of
Speaker:
time. And whatever kind
of practice you have,
Speaker:
I think a good first step is to identify
what are the two to three or one key
Speaker:
metrics that you really want to
track. And it's going to be different.
Speaker:
If we were an hourly rate practice, it
would be a totally different metric.
Speaker:
And then the systems part is just having
replicable systems that once you've
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figured out how to do something well,
Speaker:
you continue to do it the same way every
time and train people to do it that way
Speaker:
so you're not constantly reinventing
the wheel and you have consistent high
Speaker:
quality standards across the
board. And when we started,
Speaker:
we would have multiple paralegals and
they would all be doing things their own
Speaker:
individual ways. And one way would be
better and the other way would be worse.
Speaker:
And at some point it occurred to us, well,
Speaker:
why aren't we just taking
the best practice and having
everyone do it that way?
Speaker:
So we've really tried to do that across
the board and systems that define what
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we're doing. So we covered eight.
Speaker:
Let's move quickly onto nine in our
last three minutes and we'll cover 10.
Speaker:
Nine,
Speaker:
scale without diluting
identity or quality.
Speaker:
This is kind of the stage we're at right
now, Ben. We've laid our foundation.
Speaker:
We had a fantastic year last year,
Speaker:
and now we're in our scaling
phase. What's our next step?
Speaker:
We're filling out our litigation
team. We're increasing our marketing,
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we're increasing our intakes.
Speaker:
How do we scale without losing
all the things that we've put in
Speaker:
place that have been
successful up to this point?
Speaker:
And a lot of that is very simple things,
Speaker:
but the service you try and give
every potential client that calls in,
Speaker:
if we all of a sudden go
from 60 intakes a week to 250
Speaker:
intakes a week, are we going
to lose that personal touch?
Speaker:
Are we going to lose that ability to
be able to decipher on whether it's an
Speaker:
appropriate or qualified case or can
we refer it out to another attorney? So
Speaker:
to be able to scale and not lose your
Speaker:
culture, not lose what made
you successful to begin with,
Speaker:
I don't want to say is what
we're struggling in, but
that's this year for us.
Speaker:
That is 2026 and we're
three weeks into it.
Speaker:
Yeah. I mean, for me,
Speaker:
this is very personal to me because I'm
getting older as the days and years go
Speaker:
by and there comes a point
where I'll want to do less.
Speaker:
I want to have a firm where the
firm isn't about the individuals,
Speaker:
it's about having the firm.
Speaker:
And the firm comes first and
we have a powerhouse firm,
Speaker:
not just people that have good
reputations. And so we're now, I mean,
Speaker:
I no longer do most of the
legal work on most of the cases,
Speaker:
which I did for years.
Speaker:
I've very intentionally
taken myself out of ...
Speaker:
I'm not lead counsel on any case
in our office now, which I love.
Speaker:
It doesn't mean I'm not
intimately involved in every case.
Speaker:
I am just in a different way, but
that's been critical to scaling.
Speaker:
In order to scale, it's self-evident,
Speaker:
but you have to take yourself
out of being indispensable
Speaker:
for everything. Otherwise, you can't
scale. You have limited amount of time,
Speaker:
you have limited time horizons.
Speaker:
So there's things where I can
add value and strategy and input
Speaker:
into some of the critical
junctures in cases.
Speaker:
I'm still going to probably be first
chair in every trial we do for the
Speaker:
foreseeable future, which
I'm happy and excited to do.
Speaker:
But if I don't take another deposition
in my lifetime, I'll be very happy.
Speaker:
I'm doing two next week. But the
reality is I'll still do a few,
Speaker:
but I'm for the most part not doing
depositions, not doing the briefs.
Speaker:
I'm trying to take myself
out of most of that.
Speaker:
This is how I know we're
on the right track.
Speaker:
It's very easy for the Benzen
Taylors of the world to give
Speaker:
up things that they don't enjoy.
Speaker:
They gave up facilities and
buying office furniture.
Speaker:
They gave up dealing with our IT vendor.
Speaker:
Taylor really enjoyed the office version.
Speaker:
He did. I had to pry it away from, which
that's because he likes a good deal.
Speaker:
We hired a marketing person and brought
him in house, so they gave up marketing.
Speaker:
So all those things were the easy things
for them to give up. The hard things,
Speaker:
and I know we're on the right path because
Ben and Taylor are starting to give
Speaker:
up things that they've been doing for
the last two decades and been doing very
Speaker:
well,
Speaker:
and they have the confidence
in the team that we've
Speaker:
built to hand over those
duties that in the past,
Speaker:
"If I want it done right,
Speaker:
I got to do it myself." And so
that's the exact trajectory we want
Speaker:
to be on. And I don't know, it's good.
Speaker:
Yeah. So we sort of at the end, but let
me just comment on the very last topic.
Speaker:
One of our goals in addition to our
financial goals and client services
Speaker:
related goals is we actually
have an internal goal.
Speaker:
We call it building the law firm
of the future. And I think, I mean,
Speaker:
we all probably use AI in
different capacities currently.
Speaker:
I am a huge user of AI.
I'm probably on ChatGPT,
Speaker:
much to my wife's dismay,
like five hours a day,
Speaker:
but it has enormous power to
leverage what we currently
Speaker:
do and to make us more
efficient and productive.
Speaker:
It also has the power to
distract and be useless.
Speaker:
So we have to use it in a very
deliberate and intentional way.
Speaker:
But I think it's fair to say
that what a law firm looks
Speaker:
like even two or three years from now,
let alone five or 10 years from now,
Speaker:
is going to be totally different.
There will no longer be teams of
Speaker:
people answering phone calls that will
almost certainly all be handled by AI.
Speaker:
A lot of the things that paralegals
currently do will be done by AI,
Speaker:
a lot of things that young
associates ... I mean,
Speaker:
in our medical malpractice cases,
Speaker:
getting a lawyer competent to
review a complex medical record and
Speaker:
make decisions about even whether that
is or isn't the case would take years in
Speaker:
the past and hours and
hours or days of time.
Speaker:
It can be done for the most
part in about an hour now,
Speaker:
utilizing AI and training somebody
on how to issue spot through that
Speaker:
process.
Speaker:
So there's just so many ways in
which whatever industry you're in or
Speaker:
practice, AI is going to revolutionize it.
Speaker:
I think in terms of being a
law firm owner and a leader,
Speaker:
the goal now is to start building
your practice with that in mind,
Speaker:
not to use AI to substitute
for anything right now,
Speaker:
but to be thinking about how that might
be done in the future and creating
Speaker:
systems that will enable you to do
that as the time becomes ripe for it.
Speaker:
So we could talk a lot more about that,
but we were out of time. So with that,
Speaker:
as we said at the outset,
Speaker:
we'd love to have anybody who has a
thought or questions or wants to continue
Speaker:
the conversation. Feel free to
come up. You can use this mic.
Speaker:
You can join us on the podcast
if you want. Otherwise,
Speaker:
it was great to see everybody. I hope
you enjoyed the conference. Rachel,
Speaker:
thank you for inviting
us. Have a nice day.
Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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time with us today. And Remember,
Speaker:
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Speaker:
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