What a Trial Consultant Knows that You Don't, with Jessica Brylo

Welcome to Elawvate, the

podcast where trial lawyers,

Ben Gideon and Rahul Ravipudi talk

about the real issues that come with the

fight for justice. So let's

find inspiration in the wins.

Let's learn from the

losses, but most of all,

let's keep learning and getting better

and keep getting back in the ring.

Are you ready to elevate your own

trial practice, law, firm, and life?

Let's get started. Produced

Empowered by LawPods.

Hey, it's Ben Rahul and I started this

podcast because we love hanging out with

fellow trial lawyers and sharing

ideas that can make us all better.

And both of our firms also regularly

collaborate with other lawyers across the

countries in cases where we can add value.

If you're interested in collaboration or

even if you just have a case or an idea

that you want to bounce

off us or brainstorm,

Rahul and I are going to be hosting

confidential case workshops the first

Wednesday of each month.

So here's how it works.

If you have a case or an idea that you

want to talk about or brainstorm with us,

just send me an email to ben@elawvate.net

elawvate.net or go online

to elawvate.net and submit

a case workshop request.

We will schedule you for a confidential

30 minute Zoom meeting where we can talk

about your case to see if we can help.

If you feel like there would be good value

in collaborating on the case further,

we can talk about that.

If not, that's okay too.

We enjoy helping other trial

lawyers because we know

someday you'd be willing to

do the same for us if we

needed your help. So again,

if you're interested in

workshopping your case with us,

just send an email to ben@elawvate.net

or fill out a case workshop

request@elawvate.net.

And Rahul and I will look forward

to chatting with you soon.

Hey, it's Ben Gideon. It's time to

talk about some of our sponsors,

and I'm doing that today with Robert

Ingalls from Law Pods Rahul's Out

today. I appreciate your

standing in for him.

So today's episode is

brought to you by Steno.

Steno is a company that has

rethought court reporting services.

Not only do they allow plaintiff's trial

lawyers to defer the cost until the end

of the case,

but they've developed their own interface

that allows you to better handle and

manage exhibits and visuals during

the deposition. Check 'em out.

And what is it about Steno that you

really feel like is their main thing?

What makes them special?

I think it's really critical for

lawyers to have that option to defer the

cost of depositions,

particularly in cases where you're

doing dozens of depositions,

it can be a very significant

part of the overall case

costs,

and it's nice not to have

to incur that until you get

your money in at the end of the case.

And you can listen to the Season four

episode 17 with Steno President Dylan

Ruga. We'll link that in

the show notes for you.

Yeah, Dylan's a great guy and

really interesting episode,

so I encourage you to listen

and see what they're all about.

Our show today is also brought to you

by our friends at Expert Institute.

They've been a sponsor of

this show since the beginning.

My good friend Michael Talavi was on the

show and Robert can tell you when that

was. What was his episode, Robert?

So we had Michael Talavi

on season four, episode 22,

and we'll link that one for you as well.

Expert Institute is really the go-to

place now for plaintiffs trial firms

to locate the best experts

to help them win their case.

We've been working with Expert

Institute for four years now,

and they're an indispensable

part of our practice.

It's really hard for me to imagine going

back to a day without Expert Institute.

So they're a great company,

they provide a great service and I

would encourage you to try them out.

Today's show is also brought

to you by Smart Advocate.

Smart Advocate is the case management

software that we use to run our law firm.

We've been using it now

for over four years.

All of our staff and our team love it,

and it's done a great job managing

a complex docket of cases.

Some cases are one-offs. We have cases

where we have over a hundred clients,

so it's pretty versatile and a

good program and good people.

We also had them on

the show, right Robert?

I think we may have had

them more than once,

but I think the most recent

episode was with Claude Simpson.

It was a bonus episode in season three,

which will also be linked for you.

Our show today is also brought

to you by a file Vine. File.

Vine is a brand new

sponsor of the show file.

Vine offers a product called Lead Docket,

which is probably the best

product on the market for

managing new case intakes and leads.

And if you're a law firm like ours that

spends any dollars at all marketing to

bring cases through the door,

you know how important it is that

you don't want to miss any of those,

and you want to have an organized way

to make sure your team follows up with

every lead and turns any potential

case to bring money back in the door.

So Lead Docket is the best way to do that.

Check it out and put it

to work in your practice.

And who builds that website that

everybody can go and find you on.

I never thought you'd ask Robert. So our

friends at Hype Legal, Micah and Tyler,

we just hired them to redevelop our

website. They did a wonderful job.

The aesthetics are beautiful, the coding

is really slick. They do a great job.

It's a real pleasure to work with Micah

and Tyler because unlike many of the

other digital marketing firms,

when you work with them,

you deal directly with Micah and Tyler.

You're not dealing with some young account

executive that doesn't know anything

about coding or you're business. You're

dealing directly with the principles.

They're very responsive and they've

got a great eye for aesthetics.

So check out our new

website. If you like it,

give Micah and Tyler a call and they

can do the same Great work for you.

I got to say, people are saying,

I'm hearing people say that somewhere

around episode two of this podcast,

it just started sounding a lot more

crisp. Really good, really professional.

What happened there?

It's funny you should ask that, Robert.

We decided finally after four

seasons of kind of winging it,

and we did an okay job,

but we thought we could do better

and get better sound quality,

have a better produced show.

So we finally bit the bullet and

we've hired Lo Pods to be our official

producer. So not only they've

been editing the show,

but now they're also producing it.

So you can thank the better intro,

the better outro and the better sound

quality to the great folks at Law Pods.

And if you're a lawyer who's interested

in putting together a podcast for

yourself, I would definitely give

'em a call. They can help you out.

I appreciate that, Ben.

Alright, I think that's our ads.

Let's get back to the content.

Let's do it.

Welcome to the Elawvate

Podcast. I'm Ben Gideon,

my co-host Rhaul is sleeping in today.

It's my great pleasure to invite on

our podcast today, Ali Garmey Chardon

and Terry Garney, who

are father and daughter,

also law partners.

And Ally is the heir

apparent to the Terry Garney

Empire. Terry is one of the top

trial lawyers in the state of Maine.

He's a member of the Inner Circle.

He is, had some amazing verdicts.

Ali is an incredible trial lawyer in

her own right who recently moved back to

Maine from Chicago. And

I want to go back, Terry,

and I don't know if you remember this,

but when I moved back to

Maine to start practicing law,

I went to your office and interviewed

with you, but you never offered me a job.

So I won't hold that against you. But.

At the time I was doing

you a favor, trust me.

I was hoping you would

offer me a job at that time.

Actually,

I invited myself to interview with you

more as an informational interview.

And I just wanted to meet you because you

had such a great reputation as a trial

lawyer. And I remember meeting

you and thinking, actually,

this is what I want to do for a job

because you seem to love what you do

so much. And I was coming out of

big law firm in New York City,

and although you didn't have

any openings, I actually,

I didn't expect you to offer me a job

I took from you that you had found a

career that you loved and really enjoyed.

It has impacted me from

that moment forward.

Wow, I appreciate that. And most

things in life when you're my age,

I do have a general memory

and I remember the office.

I think I was still on the

waterfront at that time.

Beautiful office.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, I've

worked my way down over time.

I'm looking at tents now,

Ben. But first of all,

I appreciate you having us on the show.

I'm reminded of Groucho Mark's

famous quote that normally I

don't join organizations that

would help me as a member.

And for whatever reason

I think you touched upon,

I think the one thing I do have to offer,

I really love what I do and

I feel lucky to have done it.

And if I left you with the impression

when you were a young lawyer that I love

what I do, then that's

what I would've wanted.

I'm 78 in May and I still come to work.

I think that's all I have to offer is

that I speak to those people who are

looking for passion.

It's here in the practice

of helping people who have

been injured and I found it

and I have a hard time giving it up.

It seems like that rubbed off on your

daughter because she followed your

footsteps. Is that the case, Allie?

It is. But the prodigal

daughter, I guess you can say,

because I went to big law after

law school. It's funny. Well,

I grew up in Maine.

I had a wonderful childhood

and pretty decent parents,

and they gave me the gift of saying,

wherever you get into college,

we'll make sure you get there.

And then grad school is on you.

You and your sister can pay for your own

way. And that gave me debts to repay.

And with that,

I made a choice that for a long time

I regretted and now I've come to see

was an important part of my path.

I did the responsible thing and

went and got a huge paycheck and I

was absolutely miserable for seven years.

I worked at a great firm and if

that's the work I wanted to do,

that would've been the place to do it.

I really liked and respected the people

who owned and ran that

firm, but it wasn't me.

I was a square peg in a round hole.

I didn't know any lawyers really with

whom I was close that liked what they did.

And it wasn't what I had thought

I was getting into because I

recalled my father's stories,

just my whole life. I mean,

I was just truly a

plaintiff's lawyer's kid,

but a happy plaintiff's lawyer's kid. Why?

I think it's just a very privileged

person's way of finding her hardship

because I was well compensated. I

was paying for two kids in daycare,

supporting my husband, getting a PhD.

I had so many comforts and I'm really

grateful for that. I paid off my loans,

but I was really, truly unhappy.

And because of my father's

inspiration and the ability

to begin working with him

piece by piece for a long time,

I was working at the

contract from Chicago,

I was able to make the transition to this

world and I was able to make the very

scary decision of moving my entire family.

And my husband in particular whose career

was in Chicago back here to work with

my dad.

And so now I pinch myself every

day because I get to do this work.

And because I have had the experience

of knowing what it's like to not feel

fulfilled and not feel

like you're doing good.

So from a dad's perspective,

Ben Allie's aspirations were

so much different than mine

and the decision that she

would be responsible for

graduate school. I feel a little

defensive here, but I really wanted both.

I have two daughters and I've

been financially independent

almost without exaggeration

since I was about 10.

I had a paper out and I had it all

through high school and had people working

for me and was self funded.

And I wanted Allie to have a sense

of independence of feeling that she

could control her own destiny. And then

as a dad, of course, I love what I do,

but I think you're fulfilled if you're

with the kind of people that you want

to spend time with. Right. When

Allie was in law school, Ben,

I can't tell you the number of people

here in Maine who would find out.

I had a daughter in law school

and in a joking way, Sam,

I'm so sorry. Have you tried to

talk her out of it or poor thing?

I'm defensive about being a

plaintiff's lawyer. I like what I do.

I don't like people to

make fun of what we do.

I might say I broke my nose

chasing parked ambulances,

but I don't want other

people to say that, right?

So when Allie got into a very good law

school and did well and then clerked

for the first circuit, she followed

that up with a job. And frankly,

both of you went to big law.

Big law wouldn't have had me.

I think that's true for a lot of

plaintiff's lawyers. You're the outliers,

right? She was from the

moment she got her job,

I remember the first conversation.

She was given a very good

job with a very good firm,

and she told me how much she made. And

I wasn't trying to dis her, but I said,

ally, you're not worth that much.

You don't have any experience.

How could they possibly pay you

that much? You're not worth it.

And so for those seven years,

while I still loved what I had

been doing for 30 some 40 years,

Allie, I would talk to her on

the phone and I thought, geez,

I influenced her into this

profession. And she's miserable.

So I think if you feel

good being around people,

and I think all people are allowed to

be really simplistic in our speech,

we get away with it, but

it's pretty simple to me.

I really like representing

people as Ali and I just did

who work in factories and leave school

at 15 and get really good jobs as

maintenance people. And when they

get injured, it just makes me,

I like hanging with them.

And I wouldn't have been happy

going to lunch with bankers.

Nothing wrong with bankers, but that's

not me. So when Allie found her calling,

I was really happy when she decided to

take a courageous step to come back to

Main and give plaintiff's law a try.

We're going to circle

back to that, but Terry,

can you give us a little bit of thumbnail

sketch of your journey to becoming a

lawyer and a trial lawyer?

Because I know you have one of the

more fascinating stories that I've ever

heard, and I think our

listeners would enjoy hearing.

I've had a really lucky life.

I feel I was born into a family

where there were not many books.

My father did not graduate from high

school. I think he was pretty smart.

He was an alcoholic. My mom

had problems of her own.

Her parents immigrated from

Italy and Italian was her primary

language. And I was raised

in a family where I was told,

unlike Allie, who was

told as a young girl,

I would pay for any college she

could get into. Unfortunately,

she got into some good ones,

which really disappointed me.

But my parents when I was a freshman

in high school said just the opposite,

high school's it,

and then you're on your own and we

don't really see a need to think

about college for you.

And I went through a parochial

school system and the nuns from

grade one to eight,

they didn't get along very well with me.

And I wasn't really bad, bad,

but I spent probably more my sixth

grade year than literally in the

hallway than I did in the classroom.

So I went to high school and I

came under the instruction of

a bunch of monks called Christian

Brothers. They became role models.

They filled in for spots. My dad couldn't.

And at the end of my high school, two

or three days after my senior prom,

I joined them and my

friends threw me a party,

a surprise party.

And I thought I would have to stay long

enough so as not to embarrass myself,

which I thought would be six months.

And I was there four and a

half years including, and Ben,

you know me well enough to know how

miraculous it was that I spent the

first 15 or 18 months in a

canonical novitiate where

you weren't allowed to talk much,

which is just astounding to me.

So I went from there, man. It

was a transformative experience.

I became a much better student. And

I went to a college, LaSalle college,

and I volunteered as much as I could

at a reform school with really tough

kids. They were sent by the courts for

very serious offenses like manslaughter.

I started out an English teacher,

but back then I was bigger than most

English teachers, so they moved me.

Dad, you skipped the God squat.

Oh yeah. I did play football at LaSalle.

I was the first guy as a religious,

allowed to play on a very bad club

football team that traveled around.

It got me out of LaSalle

until I screwed up my knee.

So after that, four and a half years

into it, I knew this wasn't for me.

And I'm not a religious

person any longer been either,

but I'd like to think the things I

learned in the brothers have stuck to my

ribs. But in the moment my parents

learned I was leaving the brothers,

which was the only thing I ever did that

literally that ever made them happy.

We had a scene like out of the graduate

where my dad hoped that I would get

drafted and go to Vietnam,

but I got a job at one of the reform

schools I had volunteered at, lived there,

finished my college career, became a disc

jock. I would go to school at nights,

tried that for six months and learned

how to say, it's 10 o'clock in Massillon,

Ohio. These are the stories.

Making the news at this hour.

It's not helped me in a

trial. And from there,

I found life not satisfying.

I wasn't doing what I trained to

do to help people that needed help.

And I went to Boston. I got a

job in a self-help drug clinic,

which was a fascinating experience

with a guy who taught me more about

cross-examination. He was a black Jay

Johnson, he became my best friend.

He was a football star at bu,

sold heroin on the side

and was a heroin addict

and brilliant. And he

became a black Muslim.

That kind of destroyed our

friendship as you might expect.

And I left the brothers

and I met my wife, Mandy,

Allie's mom. And shortly about that time,

I had no money.

I was literally homeless.

So she got me a job as a night watchman

so I could have a place to sleep on the

floor of another drug center.

And I promised her I'd find

a way to make a living.

I started as a psychologist.

I thought that would've been awful.

I think Mandy thinks I'd have

been okay. I don't think so.

So I went to graduate school for a year

and I took one of the people from the

center to trial. He was a black

gentleman and he sold cocaine and oh,

if you're addicted to drugs, you're going

to have to find a way to pay for 'em,

right? And so this line between

a user and a seller is to me

gossamer thin. So he sold, he cleaned up.

We had the only at the first of its

kind daycare program where people

withdrew from heroin in our program

and then went home at night. He did

great. He was very handsome. I

brought him to court. I said,

the judge is going to treat you well.

And he said, no, wait till you see.

I got to court in Boston and a public

defender showed up with the ponytail.

This is 19 71, 72 wearing clogs.

And this guy who I had promised,

you're going to do okay, looked at me,

what this look like? I told you.

And then I watched the worst.

I'd never seen a lawyer until then.

That's the first time in the courtroom.

And I thought at the end of that day,

he got a terrible sentence and

I thought I should do that.

That's what I decided to do

my third year of law school.

I think they can take my license

away because you have to.

But I had a chance to work as an

assistant district attorney during a

big murder case. And my third year at BC,

I went pretty much in my first class

and took my finals and worked full time.

So that's the circuitous route. I

don't get to talk about it much,

but I just feel lucky.

I end up in a profession where doing

good and doing well don't have to be

different. That's not

true for most people.

And Allie, did you know all of

your dad's history growing up?

Or you only learned that as you

became an adolescent or an adult?

The thing about my dad that my

dad is my role and I just admire

him so much.

And one of the things about him that's

made him so successful is he just started

that whole story by saying,

I've had a lucky life.

A lot of people would've

looked at his childhood,

he didn't go into all the details,

but a lot of people would not have

described their childhood as lucky in that

sense. And dad,

you've got this way of reframing

everything in an optimistic way and it has

brought you success. It's

just, it's how you conquer.

It's the way you see the world to

a fault. Sometimes you're wrong,

but it's much better to be wrong

that way than the other way. I mean,

it makes you undefeatable.

I'm not aware of that.

No. So I did, and my dad

is an amazing storyteller.

First of all,

kudos to my mom because my mom did

everything in our lives to make it look

like my dad was around all the time. He'd

show up, wrestle with us, eat dinner,

and tell stories and help

with homework somehow.

I don't know how the heck she

did it, because in retrospect,

people are telling me your

dad was on trial all the time,

and he never stopped working. And

it was not the impression I had,

but it was just funny and riveting.

And we would listen to those

stories and it's pretty cute because

I have pictures. Every once in a

while I'll pull out my phone and snap,

because we still have family

dinners now. My sister's back,

he's got all four grandkids in town,

and it's kind of like the Pied Piper.

If you look at him at the, it's

almost the last supper. Everyone,

all the little kids are leaning towards

my dad with their ears and he's telling

the same stories that he

told us and they love it.

But her mother's heard him 17 times.

My mother leads to do the dishes.

At some point you became a trained

actor in some fashion, right, Terry?

Well, it's funny.

Yes. Was that part of your

training as a trial lawyer?

Is that separate and

independent from that?

No, it's different. And Ben,

I did some radio commercials and

one was nominated for a prize in

Maine, and then some

photographer from New York said,

you should do commercials. Can I

take some photos? And then I had fun.

So I would try cases and then do

industrial films or commercials or

I really like doing voices.

I won't do 'em here.

You do Anybody in particular

that we would know?

No, no, don't get me

started. It'd be terrible.

Don't get him started. He'll be

on the voice. The rest of that.

Yeah. The bottom line is I think

acting teaches you to recognize

the defenses people use to hide

their true feelings. So if anything,

it should lead you to being

more approachable and less

guarded in the courtroom.

So I wouldn't want somebody to

come to one of my trials and say,

you can tell if they said, I can tell

you're an actor. I didn't like that.

I felt like I'm not

acting in the courtroom.

So it is interesting.

For many years at the local high

school that Ali attended Cap Elizabeth,

I volunteered to teach

extemporaneous speaking and I got

intrigued in that because I had

read that for the American male,

the number one fear is speaking

in front of a crowd of people.

I think that's true even till today.

Is that just for males?

I don't think the women in my

life have a problem. I don't know.

The women in your life that I know

don't seem to have any problem with it.

Do you have a fear of speaking

Terry in any capacity?

Are you so well trained as a I do. No,

I do and I think I have to come to

grips with it. How about you, Allie?

You don't seem to have any fear at all.

That's been my experience with you.

I appreciate that. I have a ton of fear.

I call it the imposter monster that we

all have, but I've overcome a lot of it.

One way in which I'm very different

from my father is I am not a performer.

I'm not an actor. His creative, as he

was describing a very intellectual place,

but also just this, I don't know. It's

funny. I would've said confidence,

but now listening to him talk,

I guess it's not that I don't know

where his theatrical impulses come from.

I know my sister inherited

them. I don't have that.

And I think for a long time I thought

that I shouldn't be a trial lawyer in

addition to the fact that

it's a high risk profession.

That was very scary to

me and for that reason.

But that means a lot to me that you say,

I don't think you think I speak

without fear. I'll take it.

There is one thing I will say. I did

a lot of mock trial and the first,

but through high school with my dad,

and then in law school when I

was doing it the first time,

I got to sit and argue in front

of a real jury. And by real jury,

I mean a group of high schoolers

from Chicago, but real people.

I had a feeling that

I've never had before.

And the only time I've ever

had since is talking to a jury.

And I haven't gotten to do it enough yet.

But I really like talking to people and

that's how I surprise myself when I get

the chance to do that. I surprise myself

that I'm not more afraid than I am.

I mean feeling like I want to puke,

but luckily I know that my father is my

favorite trial lawyer tells me he wants

to puke too. So it makes me feel okay. So.

It's interesting to examine that fear

because I've come to this point where I

don't think all fears are the same.

And it's natural to be fearful because

you have a client you care about

and you really want to help that client

and you really believe in his or her

cause. But I'm still,

I've been at this a long time and I've

come to recognize that my fear of failure

is separate. And apart from that fear,

I would like to get a better handle

even on that at my age. In other words,

the fear that losing a trail

proves that my parents were right.

I've seen your boat Terry, and

you've proven that they're wrong.

I have a new and bigger vote coming and

I'm calling it my parents were wrong.

But the fact is that we,

each of us need to separate our failure

from failure as a person. I don't

know if I'm saying that right,

but I'm an old guy and still plagues me.

There's one trick I learned a

long time ago that seems so silly,

but I've been doing it for 45,

48 years and I still do it.

Even like the moment that I

have to give a closing or open,

I feel the energy of my fear.

And then I reflect back on some

time where I did a courageous thing

to me.

It's one event in high school and I

think about it and for a few seconds

right before an opening statement,

it seems like a gimmick,

but it puts me in a place,

if I can recollect that there

was a time when I was fearful,

I took an action that took some

guts and I turned out all right,

I'm still here.

What was it?

I stood up to a school

bully, right? In McDonald's,

and it would be a much better

story if I beat him up.

But the fact is I was terrified.

He was bigger than me.

And so I reflect on

that moment and I think,

well, there's a bully here

and it's bigger than me too.

And I've done okay, so

reflecting on your successes,

I think many good trial lawyers feel

like they've got something to prove.

That's just my naked observation.

And that's okay. But that can,

you got to remember what's the

tail and what's the dog here?

I feel like I've got too much

to prove and I'm an old man.

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What's been consistent in the same

over the time you've been trying cases.

And what do you think

has changed over time?

Because Allie and I are

closer in the same generation.

We only know what we've seen since

we've started, but I'm curious,

is it the same as it's always

been or are things changed?

No, it's not. Ben. That's a good question.

I think you are disadvantaged by the fact,

and I do have some very

few cases outside Maine,

but most of my practice is Maine based.

You two have to confront the fact

that judges are now imbued with

this spirit that if you don't settle

your case at a mediation or at a

settlement conference that

you've let the system down,

they have criminalized risk. I've

heard them tell young lawyers,

you're going to take the risk of

this case. You could lose this case.

When I was really, really young,

I did two high lows because the judges

told me I had no chance. Alright?

And I listened to the judges

and in both those high lows,

I got huge verdicts and

lost a case. But in my day,

you'd settle your case.

You don't settle your case,

you didn't feel pressure from

the bench that you're wasting

the court's time because a

case that could have settled,

it's now going to occupy a jury. I

don't know how you young people feel,

I'd be interested, but

compulsory mediation's, okay, K.

But more and more young people are

having a hard time walking away from an

offer.

Ali, what's your experience on that?

Absolutely. First of all,

it's not helping us in Maine.

That's taking us so long

to get to trial, right?

I've had to settle a lot of cases lately

just simply because my clients are so

old that it would be selfish of

me not to. And that's frustrating.

But I think we had the main Trial

Lawyers Association annual meeting.

You were missed Ben last Friday

or a couple of weeks ago.

And I just love talking to

my dad and all of his peers.

There are so many war stories. Look,

they have more war stories than we'll

ever have because they tried everything

and they were doing workers' comp. And

my dad's firm at the time did defense,

and it was a real traditional old

school firm that was heck, I mean,

you've probably tried a family law

case that I don't even know, but.

A couple.

Yeah,

he tried everything and

that sort of experience

you can't replace and I don't think

I'll ever have it. And look, it's okay.

I also really wanted to be a mom

and have my kids and have a steady,

secure little nest before I did

this crazy Eat what? You kill work.

So there's that. I guess

I'm just really grateful.

I have my dad and Gary

Goldberg around in my office.

I don't know what I'd do without them

because the experience that they have,

not just the legal expertise,

but it's a deep understanding of human

beings and juries that comes from

trying case after case after case

after case is totally irreplaceable.

So what's the solution

for that? I don't know.

I'm trying to jump on

everybody's trial. I can get,

I'm really lucky that I have some really

fantastic law partners that are high

volume who,

Chris Harmon's been very generous and

he's got a lot of trials and so he brings

me aboard.

I feel this, I do feel,

and maybe it's important that I

think about what my dad just said,

keep a check on this feeling.

But I do feel I have something to prove

because I need to try a bunch more

cases, but also something to learn.

And also what we don't remember,

I think those of us who are in

this come up in this world is how

many times clients are happy when you

lose because you gave them a shot.

And that's happened lately,

even in the past five years.

My partners have lost trials or gotten

small verdicts and had their clients hug

them and say, thank you so much for

doing this for me. And that means a lot.

Yeah. I mean, lawyers

give folks with no voice,

a voice.

And when Ali mentions that losing

a case isn't the worst thing in the

world,

if the client gets to tell her story

for the first time and the only time,

and if she feels it's heard,

another thing that may have changed,

and I'm interested in your

perspective, for the first 40 years,

45 years of my practice, there was

a general respect for the courts.

And so when you entered a

courtroom, it became my church,

right? Or my synagogue. It

became the holy place, right?

And jurors came in imbued with the

spirit that judges were special

people and they tried to

rise above their prejudices.

And when you see the

corrosive effect of constant,

constant diminishment of the judicial

system and the judicial branch,

I just wonder, I think it's too

early to really know. I mean,

there's some really huge verdicts

including one 3 billion bucks that just

came down I know in civil cases.

But it's hard for me to imagine that

the constant attack on the judicial

system doesn't demean every courtroom.

I don't know what we do about that

when we see big law firms volunteer

$40 million worth of their

very precious skill and work

to support issues that nobody

thinks they believe in.

What's that do to us as a

profession? So you and Ali Ben,

I think have generational problems

to confront that. I'm lucky.

I feel lucky I didn't have to.

I will say I feel it's a very scary world

right now.

I feel privileged and entitled

that I have a law license

and can try a jury case because

I deeply believe that the threat

of having nine or 11 human beings judge

their behavior is potentially the only

thing that can keep

corporations in check right now.

And I do think that

jurors in my experience,

take their roles so

incredibly seriously and it's

beautiful thing. And to that end,

it's almost like a civic duty for us

lawyers that we keep trying cases,

including small cases, including, I

mean, I think trying to figure out Ben,

how we can get more prisoner

cases lined up after they survived

summary judgment per se for trial lawyers

like us to just take on and just bring

them from summary judgment to trial.

Just because the more human beings

that cycle through that jury pool,

I can hope the more they

understand how critical it is.

Yeah,

we definitely live in some scary times

and I think we could have another podcast

or many, many to address these issues.

And I share your concerns about

the second item referenced is more

specific to Maine,

I think because we have cases in other

jurisdictions where the courts actually

function reasonably well and cases

get moved and trial dates get set

and that just isn't

happening in our home state.

And that has to do with a

variety of things including

budgets and priorities and

other problems. But it's a

real problem in our state.

We see our colleagues going to trial

more often and getting verdicts in other

states. We can't even get trial dates

in our state. So it's very frustrating.

But back to the Terry,

over the course of your time and having

tried all of those cases for many,

many years, if you were talking to newer,

younger lawyers who are just getting

their start and trying to impart some of

the big picture takeaways

or wisdom from that

experience, what are some of the

top lessons you would tell them?

And as an aside,

we know you're a very funny person and

I've seen you do these humor things.

Yeah, I think too much when I was young.

Do you bring humor into

the courtroom at all?

I do, yeah, sometimes. That was

funny. It didn't mean to be,

I think humor is appropriate in the

courtroom, but looking for the laugh,

forcing a laugh isn't in good. And I

think I had to really moderate that.

I tried a case in Boston when I was a

really young lawyer. I couldn't refer out.

I did okay. And a few weeks later,

a lawyer from Boston who I know,

a defense lawyer said, I saw the federal

judge and he said, you did a good job.

He's got to drop that down home act.

And I had think mimicked

Charlie Smith a little too much.

And so learning to be yourself

is the important thing.

I guess the lesson that I would

try to impart to a young lawyer

is choose your clients wisely.

To me at least,

the secret to what I've

been able to accomplish is I

really fall in love with my

clients.

And there are some professions where

I think you didn't do that,

but if you're a plaintiff's lawyer and

you're going to put yourself on the line,

you want to do that for a client

that you really care about.

I think you need to find the simple story.

I'm trying to think of

a way to express that.

I remember I was terrified in

my first big products case,

a guy who lost his arm and there were

signs all over machine that said,

don't put your arm in there.

I mean like a hundred of 'em.

And he was cleaning the machine,

put his hand in, lost his arm,

and I couldn't figure out,

I was terrified of trying that before

the case started in federal court.

And I was looking through

an old 1954 safety book

and in its own engineering

language, it said,

people are subject to hunger,

thirst, boredom, headache,

but machines are the same day after day.

And that really became,

once I felt, I found that simple

story. That was the story.

The machine never changed. It didn't

get cold, it didn't get wet. Scott did.

And all of our cases have

a simple truth somewhere.

And you have to find the simple

truth, believe in the simple truth,

and don't overstate don't have to do that.

And I also think Machiavelli said,

you have two choices with your

enemy embrace or an alienate.

I prefer to be an embracer,

believe it or not. I've seen,

and there was a very effective

plaintiff's lawyer, you know who I mean?

Really good and a great criminal

lawyer, and both of you know who he is,

but he's dead. And he was

an alienator. Yeah, okay.

He never found a doctor he

liked, right? We know who he was.

And so I tried a case with him once

for three weeks and that was his style,

right? And he got wonderful

verdicts sometimes.

But you don't need to do that. Ultimately,

if a jury doesn't believe

that good people make big

mistakes and ought to pay for those

big mistakes you're going to lose.

You don't have to prove that somebody's

bad. So don't put the ball in play,

right? I don't have many secrets,

Ben. I wish I did.

Those are some powerful

ones in and of themselves.

It makes me think and

question some things.

I've really appreciated that you do have

a lot of, you don't keep 'em secret,

you share them. But there's

a lot of wisdom in there,

and I've really appreciated that attitude

that you've embraced more and more as

you've gotten older. Dad. I mean,

we've joked that certain

deposition conduct from

opposing counsel would've ended

in the cuffs 30 years ago with you,

and you've just diffused it so gracefully

with humility. It's incredible.

But I've appreciated it

because I think for me

as a woman, it has been, I think

I had this image first of all,

that I had to be just

as clever, just as fast,

just as theatrical as my dad

and I'm not, and just different,

but that I had to have an

aggression that isn't natural to me.

And I've always felt like my mentors here,

my father and Gary and everybody

has just genuinely let me

be who I want to be and let that become

effective in its own right. And it helps

me sleep at night because it

is, it's a scary profession.

I've been talking a lot about how it's

risk and how it's eat what you kill.

I don't want to give the wrong impression

that it wasn't terribly courageous for

me to join this firm. It wasn't terribly

courageous for me to switch sides.

I took a huge pay cut, which I've now

made up for. There was no tampering,

but I had such an opportunity to

be able to work with my dad and

know that I could rely on

him and rely on his name and

reputation. People, judges

recognize me because of my dad.

I really admire people and

there are so many of them.

And I met a bunch of women with this

backstory at the last plaintiff's

conference I went to who have made that

jump without the kind of support that I

had.

No.

Nepotism.

Well, I want to point out,

it was important for me to make it clear

to Allie that what she had here was an

opportunity.

But I think if you ask the

young lawyers in this office,

there was no intention on my part

to make it any easier to bend any

rules,

to make Alex's life easier here than

it was for any other associate that

would've been unfair to her and

unfair to them. So the move,

because she did take a huge pay

cut, it was scary for me because,

and I made it really clear,

there are no guarantees there.

What you have is an opportunity.

Can I just before you finalize that,

Allie is an absolute rockstar, Terry,

and if you hadn't hired her, we

would've hired her in a second,

and we'll pay her more than you're

paying her right now. I'm sure you will.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I knew

you would, and that's why I hired her.

Ben,

let me just say one thing that I think

hopefully the audience might be hearing

now. We all benefit from the fact

that Maine only has a million people.

It's a small bar.

And those of us who have licenses in

other big states like Illinois and

Massachusetts, we know

that in a larger bar,

bad behavior can be buried

because you try a case with

Joe or Josephine and you never see

her again. So she can be a total jerk.

In Maine,

we have the benefit of having a state

where your reputation is well known,

not as to whether or not

you're effective trial lawyer,

but what kind of person

you're, can you be trusted?

Are you going to get in these crazy

arguments in front of the jury and

demean your opposition? And we know who

those lawyers are and they do exist,

but for the rest of us,

our behavior is moderated by the

fact that our reputation precedes us.

And I just feel so lucky to

practice law in a state like Maine.

It is really terrible,

especially as you get older and there's

a warranty on a timestamp on your

product. You want to get these cases

to trial and we share that angst.

But otherwise, as a place to practice law,

we have judges that by and large

really try to do their best.

They let you try your

case once you get there.

And we have lawyers that still treat

the process with dignity and almost

all you can trust. And I don't

think that's true everywhere,

as I see other lawyers from other states.

I don't know about your experiences,

but.

No, I think there's a trade

off between efficiency and

economic opportunity and

what you just described,

which is a quality of life and having

the ability to have a satisfying,

enjoyable career that makes you feel

good and you can raise your family and

have a nice balance.

And I think we do have that in our state

despite all the frustrations that come

with trying to make a

living practicing law here,

which is a good transition to the future.

So what's on the horizon for you guys?

Where are you going from here and what

are you looking forward to down the road?

You don't ask a 78-year-old

what's on the horizon?

Look, I'm itching. I have

one regret left. Well,

got a lot of stuff to tick off, but I

haven't had a jury trial with my dad yet.

We've had a bench trial, which we

were proudly tried this mid covid.

We did a bench trial in the circuit

court of Cook County from our war

room here in Portland, Maine. It

had just moved from Chicago back.

And that was really, really a cool

experience. We've done a lot together,

but we haven't tried a jury trial.

If we can get, we've got a couple,

we're waiting for dates, we can get 'em,

I'm going to have 'em in the same hearing

aids that those great sets that the

jurors get. Because as we joke,

I mean old Terry is still like

150% of young one of 'em.

And also there's no way

anyone would think he's 78.

I mean you seem like a 65-year-old really.

I mean you look great. You're very fit.

I don't see any evidence of an aging

decline, at least from my perspective.

No, it's not true.

I wish it were.

I will say that as we all know, the

work we do is extraordinarily tiring.

And because I

feel bad for my sister sometimes

because I get to have so much quality

time day by day, hour by hour with

my dad. Although to his credit,

when he goes home and his grandkids

around, he turns work is off.

But there's a season in all of

our careers and my dad and I are

so,

so fortunate that we get to

work together in these different

seasons. So I hope that it continues

to be more and more of what it is now,

which is my son Louie needs to get to

little league and we've got a brief

due. And I look at my dad and I say,

will you take him to little league?

And that's exactly what

my dad wants to do.

And I'm finding it so luxurious that I

get to stay and work nine and not worry

about it.

Dad will take him to little league even

when my husband's working in Chicago,

my mom will feed him. And there's

a lot of little stuff that

when your daughter's ready to think about

what she wants to do, send her my way.

Ben and I can help.

She occasionally listens to the podcast

when I suggest I'm going to have her

listen to this episode.

I can provide some feedback.

It may be that you do what I do

when you've got big shoes to fill,

you may want to go do something else

for a while so that when you come and

finally work excited. I think I

needed that as unhappy as I was.

I think I needed it. But anyway, there's

just little stuff you can't replace.

My father taught me how to write

along with my mom, but I mean,

he taught me how to write.

He taught me how to think.

And so boy is it easy for us

to write a brief together.

I write the whole thing because that's

the work that he's entitled to not do

anymore.

And then he comes in with this

brush strokes and writes the perfect

introduction. He's already

told me how to frame.

He's already thought of the nuggets,

and that's all he has to do,

just sits down and he expounds

on the way he views a case.

It blows my mind and then I do the

legwork. And to have that is incredible.

Well, I appreciate that.

Let me disabuse anybody of the notion

that you're the same at 78 as you are at

50 or 55. You're just not,

if I didn't think I could

still represent a client,

well Allie and the others here have

promised me if they see me talking to the

coat rack, they're going

to let me know. But yeah,

it happens again.

So the fact is we share the

ambition of trying a case together.

I've really wanted to do

a jury trial with Ali,

and it's been so frustrating

we can't get these cases.

And the case that I think has the best

chance is one of those cases where we may

not get a big verdict, but it's really

a story that the clients have been,

it's righteous, it's a righteous

case and it ought to be told.

And whether we get a verdict or not,

we want to give platform to

what these poor folks have gone

through.

If I could do that and do it in a

courtroom with Allie, where by the way,

I'm comfortable being second fiddle,

I just was invited by Peter Richards,

by the way. I work for them now.

I try to be the best associate they have.

It's a tough competition because

Gary Goldberg and some two

wonderful young lawyers are competing.

But I have agreed to try a case with him

in June if that gets to the courtroom,

and I'll be a second fiddle

there too. And that's okay.

Allie mentioned about doing

something after college,

and you may not want your

daughter to hear this, Ben.

I advocated that for both of my

kids when I was in the brothers.

Occasionally I got to slop pigs,

I got to fix a ton of toilets,

I got to do all kinds of

dirty work for several years.

It makes being a trial lawyer

a miracle like, oh my God,

I could make money doing this, right?

Yeah. My college job member of mine,

I was an for a disabled man with

cerebral palsy and I would take the bus.

That's how I got my beer money.

And believe me, she needed

a lot of money for beer.

She had to work overtime.

I mean, that was very different

from, and I also worked on farms.

That was different work,

but it was service work and I enjoyed

it and I enjoyed him and all of

that.

But to be able to have a helping job

where you're getting paid to think

what a luxury, what a luxury.

No, I like to say, and I'm sure

others have said it better,

but we're in a profession

where we rob from the rich,

give to the poor and keep just

enough of Robin and the married men,

you look at that and say,

is that possible? And again,

I get back to this and I

don't want to sound trite,

but there's doing well accumulating

things and having the money to send your

daughter to a good college and doing good,

having something that

gives you traction in life.

And what I find most of

my friends have retired

and many of 'em are jealous

that I am open about it,

that I have something.

They're better at playing the guitar

and fishing and have very worthwhile

hobbies.

But the reality is it's fortunate

to have an opportunity to help,

even if it's one person at a

time, it's something, right?

And in this world where we are

now, where outside the courtroom,

I feel I have no power exercising what

power you do have to help somebody and to

get paid to do it is we're lucky

and we are not to lose that sense.

I think that's a great place to wrap

up. And I shared Howie's view, Terry,

that you do have such a great

quality of optimism and I find

hearing from you is inspirational.

I hope it'll be inspirational to the

other folks who are listening because this

is a very difficult and stressful

job. We are in difficult times,

but having that

perspective is so valuable,

and I do share both of your feelings that

I wake up every day feeling fortunate

that we get to do what we do for a living.

So thank you so much for coming

on and doing this with us.

Thank you, Ben. And I've reconsidered,

and if you'd like a job, give me a call.

When you guys try your jury trial,

I hope you'll let me know and we can

talk about that again. Yeah, we will.

Thank you so much, Ben.

It just means a lot to me to have this

opportunity here from my dad in this

forum because he's got a lot to

share. So I really want to thank you.

This was super kind of you to invite us.

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